Last year I listened to Samira Ahmed present a brilliant podcast for 'The Boring Talks' on Why the Carry Ons are better than Shakespeare. Intrigued, I got in touch with Samira and asked if she might be interested in doing an interview for the blog. I was absolutely delighted when she agreed and here is the result. It's a really eloquent, interesting read and bound to create some talking points!
Samira Ahmed is someone I'm sure you'll know well from television and radio. A prolific writer, journalist and broadcaster, Samira currently presents Newswatch on BBC Television and Front Row for BBC Radio 4. She has also made a wide variety of documentaries, hosts many fascinating talks and events and contributes to lots of high profile publications. Given all this, I'm incredibly grateful she has taken the time to talk to me. I hope you enjoy.
I've heard
you talk about reconnecting with the Carry Ons as an adult, but can you
remember when you first discovered the films and the impact they had on you at
the time?
They started to appear on TV in the
mid 1970s when I was a child. I remember seeing Carry On Doctor on a Saturday
evening so it felt like a big event. I got genuinely moved by the plight of
hapless but good hearted Jim Dale, loved by patients and nurses but persecuted
by the senior management. Bernard Cribbins in Carry On Jack affected me the
same way. The best Carry Ons had a sense of right and wrong about them, and
about the ordinary rising up against the Establishment. That changed later on.
Carry On At Your Convenience has some very dodgy pro boss-class politics which
would fit with how the cast were treated in general.
We had Carry On Again Doctor taped on our
early Betamax player so I knew that one particularly well. Carry On Up The Khyber was particularly loved
by my extended Indian and Pakistani family who enjoyed sitting round together
to watch it. Older visiting relatives thought it sent up Empire rather well,
though I suspect the dads and uncles quite liked the naughtiness of it all too.
In your
podcast for The Boring Talks, you argued rather convincingly that Carry On
films are actually better than Shakespeare. What has the reaction been to this
bold claim?
To be fair it was the producer Luke
Doran who pushed me to say that! I was happy with “as good as”. Where I would
say the Carry Ons surpassed Shakespeare is in their double drag – men dragging
up as women, passing as women and learning what it is to be a woman. I think
the scene where Kenneth Cope dragged up a a student nurse gets harassed and
sexually assaulted by Terry Scott in Carry On Matron is a moment of
wonder. You could even say it’s a “teachable
moment”. That’s why I show that clip to students. To help them understand the
weird sexual politics of the 70s and how something could be horrifying and
funny at the same time.
Fans of the Carry Ons love my theory
but I know some people just hate the films and find them really offensive.
But that’s about personal taste and I’m totally fine with that. No Shakespeare
scholars have given me a hard time yet. The issue is the films are fading from
popular memory. They’ll never be shown again on TV I don’t think and I’m not
sure how young people will encounter them if they’re not watching them with
older relatives who can help them understand the context.
I should say there are films I’ve
never got on with; Carry On Henry and Carry On Dick have always seemed too
vulgar for me. And I dread to think what Carry On Emmannuelle and Carry On
England are like. I’ve never watched them.
It was
really refreshing to hear you speak up on the side of the Carry Ons. Why do you
think there is still such snobbery (in certain quarters) towards these classic
comedies?
I think too many people are focused
only on the later cruder ones which often looked cheap with contemporary
settings. There’s a huge evolution from
the first 1950s Ealing comedy esque capers. Some like Cruising are really
glamorous. There’s no denying a fair amount of the most famous Carry On films’ humour
has dated, though there was actually very little that was outright offensive.
(I always cite the rape-y humour of Angela Douglas being “helped” by men in
Follow That Camel as one of the few genuinely shocking jokes). Even at the time
they relied on quite a 1950s even a pre-war coyness about sex. The amount of
male embarrassment in the Carry Ons is remarkable. The male heroes are always
terrified of powerful sexy women, even while apparently being obsessed with
sex. I have a theory that many men now find that uncomfortable which is why
they sneer at the films. The Carry Ons mock them in a way that On The Buses
(which you probably know I loathe) didn’t. On The Buses revelled in a nasty
leering predatory male attitude to women. I don’t think the Carry Ons were so
loaded against women. They were full of strong older women, which is why I did
make the comparison to the women in Shakespeare in the Carry Ons’ favour.
Perhaps it’s also getting older and being less anxious about things. But I can
see why many women don’t buy that. The way Joan Sims is portrayed in Khyber is
mean – that she’s this fat, older, nagging woman that no reasonable man would
love. Even though her acting is great, and I’m hugely on her side. I don’t
think the film producers wanted you to be.
I was
really interested to hear clips from the Carry Ons are used when you work with
film studies students. What kind of reactions do they get?
I talked about that Carry On Matron
clip to a bunch of award-winning film graduates. It’s partly just to broaden
their horizons. Partly to help them appreciate the way something can be
offensive and yet revelatory. Films are products of their time and of the
attitudes of the people making them. They tend to be surprised and in a way
excited to have someone throw a new way of looking at things at them. I made my
children sit down and watch one of the On the Buses films when it was on ITV2 or
3 a few years back. I remember saying, “You need to watch this. This is what it
was like for women in the 70s.” It was a real “a lesson from history” moment.
Some of the films of that time are really nasty and cruel towards especially
older or plain women. I think it was a reaction against the Women’s Lib
movement, just like the backlash against Me Too and feminism now by some men
whose self esteem relies on them feeling superior.
Some would
argue that the Carry On series is sexist in its treatment of female characters
but I think the women are often stronger than the men. What’s your view?
As a young girl I identified with
the romantic leads like Angela Douglas and Liz Fraser. There was often a sweet fairytale element to
their plot lines. And often the women were brave – like Juliet Mills and Angela
taking on a male identity in Carry On Jack or Carry On Cowboy. Hattie Jacques I
always loved because she so often played on being incredibly strong and
formidable with a secret girlish vulnerability underneath.
I enjoyed all the strong older women
– married, middle aged, and sometimes old and cheeky like Esma Cannon in Carry
On Cruising. There were the exotic roles they got to play – Joan Sims in Cowboy
and in Follow That Camel – which seemed such fun. Some of the later ones like
Camping went too much towards the On the Buses model of leering over younger
girls.
But the best of the Carry Ons were
full of strong women. And more and more I became aware of how crippled the men
were by embarrassment.
Now here’s a confession that will
put me at odds with your fans. Don’t hate me but: I’m not a fan of Sid James in
the Carry Ons. I love him in Hancock and all his other films; I think he was a
great actor. But I didn’t buy into the idea that he was this cool hero that we were supposed to identify with. I
think he was presented like he was the James Bond of the Carry Ons but I never
really warmed to him in them. I watched Don’t Lose Your Head again a few years
ago and was amazed that he was playing the lead rather than Jim Dale. It felt
like a dirty old man’s middle-aged fantasy. Harry H Corbett in the Sid role in Screaming
is much, much better. Genuinely sexy as well as comic. Too often I thought we
were supposed to identify with Sid as a hero and I didn’t. His best Carry On
role in a way is the dodgy tropical doctor with his polygamous marriages in Carry On Again Doctor.
You talked
quite a bit in the podcast about the use of drag in the Carry Ons, particularly
men like Bernard Bresslaw dressing up so unconvincingly as women. Why do you
think these scenarios fit so well with the traditional Carry On narrative?
I’ve always loved drag so much. I’ve
been trying to make programmes about the history of British drag for years.
There’s obviously the old music hall tradition of drag acts the Carry Ons draw
on. I don’t know, there’s something lovely about big obviously hairy strong men
playing old women in particular. Bresslaw had a sweetness about him which is
why he was so charming.
More broadly I grew up watching
Danny La Rue, Dick Emery and Monty Python – Terry Jones was especially good at
doing sympathetic old women – as much as the Carry Ons.
I know there are some people who
think drag is insulting to women, but I don’t think you can make such a
sweeping statement. The best drag makes fun of men, it makes fun of gender
roles – men learning the horrors of high heels, tights and corsets. I love the
idea in Carry On Up The Khyber that dragging up as palace dancing girls and
having to dance in front of the enemy could be the most dangerous and
terrifying thing a bunch of male soldiers have ever done. Imagine Henry V having to do that instead of just winning the Battle of Agincourt by killing
people and threatening those who don’t surrender with rape, which is what is in
Shakespeare? And in a totally unexpected way, the Carry Ons had moments of real
liberation. Again I cite Carry On Matron -- Barbara Windsor and Kenneth Cope
falling in love while both wearing dresses and lipstick as a genuinely modern
moment that stands the test of time.
I started
my blog as a tribute to my heroine, Joan Sims. I think comedy actors like Joan,
Hattie Jacques and June Whitfield were pioneers. What do you think their legacy
is and has been?
I think it’s really significant
that your blog was inspired by these women. I agree it’s their talent that
gives the Carry Ons their strength and heart. When June Whitfield died recently
I was really struck talking to other writers about how under appreciated she’d
been in official histories of British comedy till very recently. Because she
was often in a supporting role, even though the shows only worked because of
her presence. I was listening back to her work with Jimmy Edwards and remain in
awe at her talent. I think they have influenced many performers who came after,
not least because they were still working into their later years like Joan. One
of their strengths is the way they worked in a company – the team of Carry Ons
or Take It From Here or Hancock’s Half Hour or the News Huddlines. Graeme
Garden recently told me how they deliberately cast all these amazing talented
women they admired in The Goodies -- Joan Sims and June Whitfield in that Come
Dancing/gangster episode are amazing. These women really stand out in those
sitcoms for how seriously funny and professional they are; really talented
actors who outshine all the men onscreen. I think their legacy is alive
everywhere we see great British female comedians.
One critic
I’ve railed against described the Carry Ons as “a world of misery and it knows
it” however I think they are light, frothy and delightfully uncomplicated. What
do you think?
I went and looked up the article.
It’s a bit harsh but I can see her point of view. I disagree that they’re
always light and frothy and delightfully uncomplicated. I’d say they were
delightfully and deliberately complicated in the convoluted situations they
came up with, but for laughs. There was definitely something sad and creepy
about some of the later contemporary dramas like Abroad and Camping. But it’s a
sweeping generalization. And the best early ones like Constable, Cabby and
Spying did as you say offer lightness and froth. But they also felt like proper
homegrown cinema. I remember watching them on TV and getting a sense of a more
optimistic worldview in the late 50s and early 60s. There’s also something
quite painful in our age of cuts to policing and local services, to seeing a
fully funded welfare state being celebrated on screen as entirely normal. I
would say I feel I have real anger towards the producers for how they exploited
their actors though. Reading about Liz Fraser’s treatment, for example, is
horrible. But that’s as true for Laurel and Hardy.
You
recently introduced a special screening of Carry On Cleo at the BFI,
interviewing Amanda Barrie at the same event. What was that like?
Amanda Barrie’s performance in Cleo
has always been a favourite of mine since childhood. I was surprised at how
insecure she was at the time and how modest she still is, talking about her
work on that film. She was beautiful and funny, with some amazing slapstick
moments. Because for so long we have been told in mainstream reporting that men
are better comedians, I think it’s really important to remind ourselves how
many great comic actresses have always been there on screen; just not counted.
We had a great chat beforehand and
part of what I respect about her and her generation of professionals is how
they see themselves as jobbing performers and they bring such class to
everything they do. Which is why I think they’re so outstanding in soaps. Many
soap actors are the best.
A question
I ask everyone I interview, if you had to choose, who is your favourite Carry
On performer and why?
I can’t just pick one! Joan Sims and
Hattie Jacques for their combination of good humour, highbrow talent and
dignity.
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| © Copyright - Samira Ahmed |
Jim Dale because of his combination
of physical stuntwork and good looks. Check out that gorgeous pinstriped suit
he wears at Carry On Again Doctor when he’s become a rich private consultant. When I
interviewed him a few years ago I got a sense that his early experience as a
pop star had left him scarred and afraid of being the heartthrob. Which might
explain why he was always playing the fool, rather than the confident straight
lead, as if ducking the attention.
And I’ve always loved Roy Castle for
his ability to play dead straight with such humour. Even though he’s only in one Carry On it’s
unimaginable without him. He was a great comic actor. In Dr Who and The Daleks
as well. There’s something about those actors who could connect with children
as well as adults. I really miss him.
Finally,
why do you think the Carry Ons remain so popular so many years after they were
made?
Well are they? Clearly they have
their devotees and there’s a huge nostalgia factor. But I suspect they are
declining from public memory. Do they have the cult status of shows like The
Prisoner? Or The Avengers? Or the James Bond films? Or will they die with those
of us old enough to remember when they were popular and mainstream? I wonder if
they now ought to be on a curriculum somewhere and studied. Perhaps they defy
categorization. They were genuinely popular in their time and on TV. But the
story behind their creation is an unpleasant one about exploitation. Are young
people discovering them and liking them? That’s the test. Bond films have been
trying to move with the times with some success. But the Carry Ons relied on a
model of excruciating embarrassment about sex which I suspect people raised in
the age of Love Island can’t fathom.
I’ve felt sad at realizing something
I love may be fading out of sight. Perhaps that’s why I felt compelled to write
and talk about it while there are still enough of us out there to share the
memories. Whether the Carry Ons have a living future as a shared cult, rather
than one as a historical curio, I don’t know. Sorry to be so sad. Answering
your questions has left me hankering to go back and watch the early ones
though. I’m going to go and watch Carry On Constable now.
A huge thank you to Samira for taking the time to answer my questions in such an eloquent, thoughtful and considered way. It was an absolute pleasure.
You can listen to Samira's interview with JIm Dale for BBC Radio 4's Front Row here and you can read more about it here.
